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NOTE TO READERS OF THIS ARTICLE:

Arlene Tyner welcomes your comments.  If a reader has comments, please 
email me at:

eleanor@raven1.net

...with comments of 300 words or less.

Please IDENTIFY THE POINT YOU ARE COMMENTING ON, as I have done in the
below two comments.

Thanks, Eleanor White
=========================================================================
Comments by Eleanor White, P.Eng.,

Technical Advisor,

Citizens Against Human Rights Abuse
On The "No Corroboration" Assertions

Ms. Tyner states, in her article below, that most current day mind control 
victims offer no independent corroboration, and offer only the high degree of 
congruence of body effects and non-bodily harassment world wide.

I must disagree with this assertion.  The destroyed equipment from 
one 8-year job I held, plus destroyed personal belongings, would fill 
the box found of a pickup truck.  This destruction was witnessed, 
even though the perpetrator acts were after hours and not witnessed.  And I am 
only one of several hundred world wide victims.  This mountain of physical 
evidence would easily win a case in court for any crime other than covert mind 
control experimentation.  Absolutely.

On The "Fibromyalgia" And "Electrosensitivity"

As Proposed Causes

To proffer "fibromyalgia" and "electrosensitivity" as proposed causes 
for the bodily effects is to ignore at least half of the harassment which we 
mind control victims experience, which is the so-called "street theater" 
scene, nasty neighbour "skits", workplace "skits", surreptitious entry to 
home and work with theft and destruction of property.

If "fibromyalgia" or "electrosensitivity" were a cause, then why don't 
OTHER sufferers of those conditions have their family, friendship, and 
workplace relationships destroyed by fake criminal "investigations" with 
no reason and no end, and their lives filled with harassment and sabotage, 
as we do?

Although it may be comforting for skeptics to write us off as a bunch 
of chronic fatigue and electrosensitivity sufferers, this apparent lapse of 
logic does disservice to Ms. Tyner's overall excellent research and writing.


=========================================================================

From:             eleanor@raven1.net
To:               "Kathleen Sullivan" 
Subject:          Several reactions to fourth part of Arlene Tyner's
                  series on MC
Date sent:        Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:27:40

> From:          "Kathleen Sullivan" 
> Subject:       Several reactions to fourth part of Arlene Tyner's 
>                series on MC
> Date:          Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:11:27 -0500

> I don't want to make a big deal about this, but I was concerned about 
> several statements Arlene Tyner included in her fourth Mind Control 
> article:" High-Tech Crimes and Electromagnetic Madness."  It was an 
> excellent article with lots of good information, but several points made 
> in the article alarmed me and need to be discussed among the survivor 
> community more openly, if they haven't already been discussed.
> 
> First, several victims suffering from concerted high-tech harassment 
> made statements about how they either do not feel mental health 
> professionals are safe to go to and/or they indicate that they believe 
> the certain diagnoses included in the latest DSM manuals (that give 
> diagnosis descriptions, etc. for professionals) were created 
> specifically to be used to misdiagnosis such victims.
> 
> I am concerned, and have been for a while, because if people who 
> suffering from debilitating mental and emotional disabilities read such 
> statements by victims, they may be frightened away from pursuing 
> legitimate help that can greatly alleviate their suffering. 

You have to CLEARLY understand the diffference
between a current-day psycho-electronic victim, 
and a survivor of MKULTRA.

MKULTRA is SOLIDLY documented. Even if you
encounter some disbelief up front, eventually your
therapists can be persuaded that MKULTRA was
a real nightmarish atrocity.

When a current day psycho-electronic victim 
encounters almost any psychiatrist, except for one
dear lady in my town of Hamilton here, they are
HAIR-TRIGGER DIAGNOSED AS DELUSIONAL.

You do not understand what it is like for US when
we  voluntarily or involuntarily encounter the
mental "health" system.  So please bear with us 
and accept that we, too, have some degree of
understanding of reality, and based on damnable
experiences with the mental "health" system,
have VERY legitimate reasons for our opinions
about it.

> Although I am a MK survivor and usually saw no value in explaining - in 
> detail - what I'd endured, to mental health professionals in hospital 
> settings, the EFFECTS of the traumas still needed to be treated.  I've 
> met very few victims of high-tech harassment who are not at least 
> suffering strongly from methodically created PTSD, which gradually 
> leaves the victim believing that nobody can be trusted -other than other 
> victims and people posing as heroes (often bad guys) - and that some 
> normally occurring problems in their lives have been caused deliberately 
> by bad guys.  After losing enough sleep and rest, and being frightened 
> and harmed enough, it's hard to separate reality from non-reality 
> anymore.

FAR from impossible, though.  The majority of
our members are sane, tough, perceptive individuals.
We do have a few who may appear to "flip out", but 
please recognize that most of us are silently enduring 
our torture, and can do so indefinitely without "help"
from the mental "health" system.

I have been targetted for 22 years now, and have
seen one local psychiatrist twice, each time with
a diagnosis of no mental illness, and no therapy
required.  I'm only one example.

I abhor the mental "health" racket, and I
do not have trouble getting along in public.

Realize that we psycho-electronic victims are
not, by far, the only people who complain about
arbitrary diagnoses in the mental "health" system.
Studies show that different diagnoses of the same
patient by different doctors occur far more often
in psychiatry than any other branch of medicine.

Furthermore, realize that psychiatrists have zero
training in what government covert experimentation
is going on, and zero training in psycho-electronic
weapons.  That is a reason why I advise victims
to stay away from psychiatry - they have no
basis for diagnosing us, and the law is totally 
wrong to ascribe expertise to them they do not
possess.  Would you want a podiatrist to diagnose
your brain tumor?

Bear in mind that if one of US goes to a shrink
with PTSD, WE will be diagnosed delusional/
paranoid schizophrenic.  We are telling you this
based on concrete occurrences, not speculation.

I tried explaining the most simple and factual
beyond all doubt, well documented basics of
UNclassified psycho-electronic weapons to one
shrink here.  He outright refused to hear even
one word of documented truth.

So then I started telling him about MKULTRA.

At that point, he stood up, shook my hand,
told me we had nothing more to discuss and
wished me a nice day.  The average shrink that
WE run into doesn't like even discussing 
MKULTRA, never mind our form of torture.

>  Everyone becomes the enemy, if one is not careful.  (I was 
> this way too, BTW, for about eight years - I was, at times, agoraphobic 
> and trusted noone.) 
> 
> Just getting help for the PTSD can be tremendously helpful, including 
> taking medications that alleviate some of the symptoms (such as 
> antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications),

WE do not get antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds.

Instead, WE get legalized inescapable torture, in the
form of torture drugs like "haldol" and phenothiazines.
WE get the WRONG drugs, because we are falsely
diagnosed.  Therefore, I advise our members to stay
the heck away from psychiatry if at all possible.

If we were treated simply for depression, I would
feel differently but we are not.

If you haven't had haldol or phenothiazines, then 
you don't know what horrors we face if we ever
get caught in the mental "health" net.

And some courageous doctors are touting rigorous
studies that the public never sees that Prozac,
Zoloft, and other "modern" antidepressants do
exactly the opposite of what should be done.
They INCREASE serotonin, when high levels
of serotonin are at fault in many who flip out.

Dr. Lorraine Day and Dr. Ann Blake Tracy
are two such doctors.

So today, even being "treated" for depression is 
very risky, since low-cost, old-fashioned, beneficial
antidepressants like amitriptylene have gone
out of vogue.

> because otherwise we may 
> not be able to  function around, and socialize with, people who are not 
> perps.  This is important because then we end up right where the perps 
> want us - alone and isolated and being sitting ducks. 
> 
> PTSD can also cause us to be unable to hold a job to support ourselves, 
> because we can't get along with co-workers.  I am not able to work yet 
> for this reason.  I hope that someday, I can. 
> 
> Along with an anti-depressant that keeps me out of major depression (I 
> fought taking antidepressants for a long time and nearly died as a 
> result), I also take an anti-psychotic medication that helps keep 
> flashbacks at bay, and a mood stabilizing drug that keeps me from 
> blowing my top or going on a crying jag in public or writing overly 
> emotional materials that end up discrediting me and making me look like 
> I'm loony. 

Glad those meds are helping you - they are
torture for many.

> This is especially important because it's already so hard for people to 
> believe that what we're writing about is legitimate.  It's so easy to 
> instead brand us as loony.  The more emotionally stable we can come 
> across, the more likely we are to be believed. 

Most of our group ARE emotionally stable.

> Psychiatric medications can be tremendously helpful, and so can mental 
> health professionals.  Whenever I was  hospitalized for major depression 
> or due to unbearable memories, I was very careful how much I said about 
> my life and history to the professionals.  That is indeed wise for 
> mind-control survivors to do.  I didn't talk about much more than the 
> most basic traumas I've endured - it was enough, along with my symptoms, 
> for the hospital staff to know how to help me. 
> 
> I save the rest of my information for a private therapist who I have 
> helped get educated about mind control.  And when I didn't yet have that 
> therapist, I got my support from other survivors.  The two forms of 
> support are not the same though.  I have gotten so much more help from a 
> consistent, not-traumatized therapist than from people who are still 
> being traumatized.  The therapist has helped me to calm down and to 
> slowly realize that most people in my life are not perps.  The therapist 
> has taught me how to socialize.  This has especially been crucial for 
> me, because by socializing with many non-perps, I now have a much wider 
> local support system so that if something is done to me, many more 
> people will know and be there for me.     
> 
> We must be extremely careful not to paint the mental health field, and 
> its professionals, with one broad brush.

We are FORCED to use one broad brush,
based on concrete encounters.  We can't
deny what has in fact taken place, but
since you don't interact with us on a daily
basis, you would not be aware of that.

>   Just as we do not want to be 
> accused of being mentally ill because some truly mentally ill people are 
> claiming to be mind control survivors and are not, so it is not fair for 
> us to claim that all psychiatrists and therapists are working for the 
> government and mean us harm.

When we encounter the externally observable
behaviour of psychiatrists, they virtually
all ACT as if they were "government agents",
so that is a perfectly apt description, like it
or not.

>  My experience is that most of them entered 
> the mental health field because they have a deep desire to help those 
> who are wounded.  I admire them tremendously.  To me, they are true 
> heroes.

To me, they are egocentric, and believe
they, due to the difficulty of getting through
med school, can make no errors in judgement.
They presume to know all about covert
government expermentation and psychotronic
weapons.  They are the only legal entity who
can lock you up indefinitely without any
proper trial or defence.

> My second concern is that comments were made in Arlene's part four 
> article on page 15, where she included the following statements:  Cheryl 
> Welsh, founder of CAHRA, is "trying to organize a study of 500 alleged 
> experimentees that would include medical and psychiatric evaluations.  
> Many in the CAHRA network are very fearful of doctors because they have 
> experienced terrible abuse in the medical system.  Welsh has struggled 
> to convince them to join the study as she diligently networks with EM 
> victims in other countries and raises money to insure the scientific 
> viability of what would become a ground breaking study.  People whose 
> symptoms have other causes need to be properly diagnosed and treated.  
> PRETENDERS AND DISINFORMATION PURVEYORS AMONG 
> THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE 
> ALLEGING EM TARGETING NEED TO BE EXPOSED - 
> EITHER BY THEIR REFUSAL TO 
> PARTICIPATE IN THE STUDY OR BY THE OBJECTIVE 
> EVALUATIONS OF SCIENTIFIC 
> AND MEDICAL INVESTIGATORS [my emphasis]." 
> 
> I was quite alarmed by this sentence for several reasons:
> 
> 1)  Why should anyone suffering from government-sponsored harassment and 
> torture be expected to give his or her personal information, including 
> being studied by doctors and psychiatrists, who are safe only because a 
> person claiming to be a victim says they are?  (I'm playing devil's 
> advocate here to make a point.)  It took me twelve years, going through 
> a succession of over 20 therapists, psychiatrists and psychologists, 
> both in and out of hospitals, to finally find a combination of 
> professionals I feel safe enough to open up to.  It should be up to each 
> person to determine, for his or herself, who to go to for evaluations 
> and help, with the knowledge that that victim has every right not to.  
> No one should feel like they have to be evaluated to "prove" that their 
> victimization is real.   

I agree, and to throw back to your first concern
above, that is EXACTLY what PSYCHIATRISTS
do to us when we encounter them:  Demand we
"prove" that we are victims !!!

> 2)  Anyone who has been outspoken and does not willingly participate in 
> Cheryl's program may now be branded as a "disinformation purveyor" or 
> "pretender."  This unfortunately can sound like emotional and mental 
> coercion.  Legitimate studies done through legitimate means always 
> provide an open door policy.  No one is shamed or coerced into 
> participating.  Information about what will be done, in detail, is 
> provided up-front.  To expect active victims to bare their minds and 
> souls to strangers with the statement that if they don't, they are 
> "disinformation purveyors or pretenders," is most unfortunate.    
> 
> I hope that Arlene misunderstood what Cheryl was telling her.  I hope 
> Cheryl didn't actually make such a statement.  Regardless, the statement 
> may have already unfairly shamed damage legitimate victims who simply do 
> not feel comfortable participating, and have every right not to 
> participate in that particular study. 

I leave that concern up to Cheryl.  Personally,
I think the world of Cheryl and have faith that
her projects, (and there are more than one being
quietly pursued,) will shed considerable light 
on the current-day psycho-electronic successor
to MKULTRA.

Cheryl probably expected that everyone would
jump at a chance to participate, as she feels
that her medical study program offered a shortcut 
out of this  nightmare.  She is under heavy daily 
harassment, and working her way through law 
school, and has no dependable helpers with time 
to properly administer a study acceptable to 
mainstream science.

I feel Cheryl can be forgiven many, many times
over for this oversight.  We are UNDER FIRE
and sleep deprived constantly - so we are not
able to fulfill all the scientific niceties 
that people who are not targets can.

Again, we are a group of sane, tough-minded
survivors, and nobody's article is going to 
shame us into doing something we feel isn't
right.

> I'm sure that if this study works out, and even if it doesn't, other 
> legitimate studies will take place later on - victims and survivors will 
> have other opportunities later on to participate if they want. 
> 
> It's like with the RA survivor community.  When the first studies took 
> place, only a few survivors felt strong and self-confident enough to 
> participate.  Those doing the studies didn't expect large numbers of 
> participants.  Some survivors did not participate because they were 
> afraid of being revictimized, which was a legitimate fear.  Others did 
> not participate becasue they were afraid the wrong people would get 
> their personal information.  Others chose not to participate because 
> that believed that what they suffered was nobody else's business. 
> 
> Later, other studies took place, and other survivors were ready to 
> participate.  Many still chose not to, partly because they did not want 
> personal information to be in the hands of strangers.  That was, and 
> continues to be, their right. 

Might happen in our case someday.

> Kathleen Sullivan
=========================================================================

** TEXT PRECEDED BY THE ">" SIGN WAS WRITTEN BY SANDI 
   SANDRIDGE, AND SENT AS COMMENTS ON ARLENE TYNER'S PART 4

** TEXT AGAINST THE LEFT MARGIN ARE ELEANOR WHITE'S REPLIES

From:             "Kathleen Sullivan" 
Subject:          Re: Several reactions to fourth part of Arlene Tyner's seri
Copies to:         "Sandi Sandridge" 
Date sent:        Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:13:18

Got it.  Wish the perps felt as she does.

Cheryl probably expected that everyone would
jump at a chance to participate, as she feels
that her medical study program offered a shortcut 
out of this  nightmare.  She is under heavy daily 
harassment, and working her way through law 
school, and has no dependable helpers with time 
to properly administer a study acceptable to 
mainstream science.

I feel Cheryl can be forgiven many, many times
over for this oversight.  We are UNDER FIRE
and sleep deprived constantly - so we are not
able to fulfill all the scientific niceties 
that people who are not targets can.

Eleanor White

> From:          "Kathleen Sullivan" 
> To:            "Sandi Sandridge" 
> Subject:       Re: Several reactions to fourth part of Arlene Tyner's 
>                series on MC
> Date:          Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:53:48 -0500

> The author has given me permission to forward her response to my 
> previous e-mail.  It really opened my eyes.  In my original E-mail, I 
> forgot to include the address for part 4 of Arlene Tyner's informative 
> series on mind control:   http://www.raven1.net/arlene4.htm
> 
> Kathleen Sullivan
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Sandi Sandridge
>   To: Kathleen Sullivan
>   Sent: Saturday, December 29, 01 12:03 PM
>   Subject: Re: Several reactions to fourth part of Arlene Tyner's 
>   series on MC
> 
>     Hi Kathleen,
> 
>     I have not read the whole series, and would appreciate it, if you 
> would send me information where I can find all the parts to put this all 
> in context, but the following is of concern to me in whatever context:
> 
>     Kathleen wrote:
>     "My second concern is that comments were made in Arlene's part four 
> article on page 15, where she included the following statements:  Cheryl 
> Welsh, founder of CAHRA, is "trying to organize a study of 500 alleged 
> experimentees that would include medical and psychiatric evaluations.  
> Many in the CAHRA network are very fearful of doctors because they have 
> experienced terrible abuse in the medical system.  Welsh has struggled 
> to convince them to join the study as she diligently networks with EM 
> victims in other countries and raises money to insure the scientific 
> viability of what would become a ground breaking study.  People whose 
> symptoms have other causes need to be properly diagnosed and treated.  
> PRETENDERS AND DISINFORMATION PURVEYORS AMONG THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE 
> ALLEGING EM TARGETING NEED TO BE EXPOSED - EITHER BY THEIR REFUSAL TO 
> PARTICIPATE IN THE STUDY OR BY THE OBJECTIVE EVALUATIONS OF SCIENTIFIC 
> AND MEDICAL INVESTIGATORS [my emphasis]." 
> 
>  Sandi Sandridge replies:
>
>     I was quite alarmed by this sentence for several reasons:
> 
>     1)  Why should anyone suffering from government-sponsored harassment 
> and torture be expected to give his or her personal information, 
> including being studied by doctors and psychiatrists, who are safe only 
> because a person claiming to be a victim says they are?  (I'm playing 
> devil's advocate here to make a point.)  It took me twelve years, going 
> through a succession of over 20 therapists, psychiatrists and 
> psychologists, both in and out of hospitals, to finally find a 
> combination of professionals I feel safe enough to open up to.  It 
> should be up to each person to determine, for his or herself, who to go 
> to for evaluations and help, with the knowledge that that victim has 
> every right not to.  Noone should feel like they have to be evaluated to 
> "prove" that their victimization is real.   
> 
>     2)  Anyone who has been outspoken and does not willingly participate 
> in Cheryl's program may now be branded as a "disinformation purveyor" or 
> "pretender."  This unfortunately can sound like emotional and mental 
> coercion.  Legitimate studies done through legitimate means always 
> provide an open door policy.  Noone is shamed or coerced into 
> participating.  Information about what will be done, in detail, is 
> provided up-front.  To expect active victims to bare their minds and 
> souls to strangers with the statement that if they don't, they are 
> "disinformation purveyors or pretenders," is most unfortunate."
> 
>     Sandi responds:
>     [To me, the issue comes under the heading of invasive human 
> experimentation without full informed consent and peer review of 
> potential damages and benefits to science that might be gained from the 
> research which should be explained to the study participants.  Further, 
> as described here, there seems to be significant potential for 
> violations of human subjects research principles at the very least.  An 
> important requirement of all valid human subject research is that 
> assurance be provided that participating subjects will not suffer harm 
> as a result of participation, and if there is a risk of harm, that it be 
> fully disclosed and discussed with the prospective participant prior to 
> enrollment in the study.  Further, there must be assurance that there 
> will be no adverse consequences associated with a person's agreement or 
> refusal to participate in any research study.
> 
>     I have no knowledge base to assert whether the facts as interpreted 
> in this email are valid.  I am simply saying that if the facts are as 
> stated, it may be that certain measures put in place in this country to 
> safeguard research participants from harm FOR VERY GOOD REASONS over the 
> past half decade may not be appropriately observed in the study 
> referenced here.  It would be well for anyone considering participation 
> to recognize their right as research subjects and to inquire further 
> about this before proceeding with blind participation or putting legal 
> signature to anything.]
> 
>     Feel free to send this to the rest of the group if you feel so 
> inclined.
> 
>     Sandi L Sandridge, MSPH, LGSW
>     Secretary, PARC-VRAMC
> 
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